Not that I’m denying Mormons are Christian, but the panic is all the more insulting when you realize it boils down to him being mad they aren’t included in the “good religion” club, which should, in a decent human, be a red flag that maybe this whole ranking system is bullshit. But here we are.
Yep, that is exactly it. He pays the tiniest bit of lip service to the idea that this shouldn't be happening to anyone, but that's not what he means. He's stung that after all he does for these people they still don't really think he's a Christian, and not in that "Presbyterians arguing with Baptists over whether we should baptize babies" kind of way. That's a "doctrinal dispute." They think he's a hellbound, deceived cult member.
Raised Regular Baptist here...we were explicitly taught that Mormons had demons as special helpers. One story we were told was how there were chairs that Mormons could not physically sit in because that's where their "helper" sat, but true Christians could sit in those chairs because Jesus lived in their hearts and automatically kicked the demon "helper" out of the chair. Another story was of a Mormon family that was in a car accident and the youngest son survived because his "helper" threw him out of the vehicle before impact. I was literally taught by my Bible believing church that Mormons were a dangerous cult mixed up with demons. Imagine my shock when Mitt Romney ran for president. I knew there was no way he would be elected because no true Christian could vote for a Mormon. How times have changed...
Yeah, he thought he was going to be the next Ezra Taft Benson. You know where they sent Mittens on his sacred Wanderjahr? Bordeaux. That dumbfuck was knocking on doors telling them Mormon Jesus wanted them to give up wine.
He killed a girl in a driving accident while he was there, and falsely accused the other driver, who was blameless (and a priest who eventually became the bishop).
I was mildly surprised to be included on the list of Christians. I'm Episcopalian. I remember when Pat Roberr$on declared that we (and the Methodists) were not - we were spirits of the antichrist
Methinks Mike Lee doesn't truly understand with whom he is in bed..
I think there are enough people who have been in the Episcopal Church for so long -- or they came out of it and they're now conservative Presbyterians -- that the Episcopalians are always going to be grandfathered on to a list like this, despite how many of these same people most likely feel that Episcopalians are completely unserious heathens.
I'm old enough to have experienced good old Southern Baptist ostracism in my public high school for having not been saved because I was Catholic and we didn't have a sacred rite by that name.
Up until then I'd always gone to Catholic school where we were polite and respected that our handful of protestant classmates didn't have to go to Mass with us on Wednesday mornings and we didn't make fun of them for not getting to receive the Holy Sacrament of Communion and I think one of them even advanced pretty far in our Bible Bowl one year, but the moment I stepped into a public school we were ushered into a school-wide assembly about saying no to drugs by saying yes to protestant Jesus and getting saved and I didn't stand up when they said to stand up if you've been saved because I'd never heard of the term and had never really been in any mortal danger to be saved from so I was completely confused and was almost the only kid not standing up.
And so for weeks and even years later there were kids who either told me their pastor said they couldn't talk to me because I worship Mary and the Saints or they'd ask me questions about why I'd be part of such an obviously false religion unlike theirs which was the only true one, or they'd invite me to their church where there were no kneelers because apparently they don't kneel to pray and nothing made sense because it was lacking the beautiful ritual and incense that I love about my faith, even though I haven't practiced it in decades and felt lost the last time I went because they changed some of the call and response sections and I just fundamentally disagree with the pope about whether God can call women to be priests because who is he to decide that these women must be lying or confused.
Anyways, I was still in high school when I realized that the South wasn't just fighting the Civil War still, but we were also fighting the Crusades and nobody is ever a pure enough Christian for these fundamentalist shitheads. They'll ally with you as long as you're useful, and then cast you aside the minute they get their hands on any power -- because what good is that power if you aren't using it to put someone else down, anyway?
Lot of truth in that last paragraph. Reinforces that old saw about power corrupting, doesn't it?
I grew up in the Roman Church, but my experience was different because I grew up in a neighborhood almost entirely Catholic. The only teacher I had that did anything religious, used to make us recite the Lord's Prayer first thing, and she always said, "Now, all you Protestants, just continue with your ending. You don't have to stop with the rest of us."
My bestest friend told me years later, that she did continue (Episcopalian), but she was probably the only one who did.
How different are people's experiences in youth! Sometimes I wonder how we come together at all. Glad we do, tho'.
If these fucknut holy rollers ever DO sieze the kind of HAndmaids Tale absolute power they want, it will be 12.56 milliseconds before the internecine slaughter begins.
The Founding Fathers were within the lived experience of the hundreds of years of religious warfare that consumed Europe. They had grand parents who had fought in them. This is why Madison put the first Amendment FIRST, and the separation of church and state.
Read Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists, who were actually being discriminated against by the state because they were different from the ruling religion
Robertson said that?? He really was a douche! I'm a Baptist, but there are Methodists in the family. No Episcopalians in the family, but the Episcopal Church near my house does God's work - they have a food pantry and host a medical clinic once a week. They have a first class preschool that my grandson attended for a few years before kindergarten, and when my oldest (his mom), was in school, she went to there after school program after school.
'You're supposed to be nice to Episcopalians, Presbyterians and Methodists ... Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.' It was about the same time he said that feminists encouraged women to leave their husbands and "become" Lesbians.
Episcopalians are inclusive - which means we have our share of uncharitable, intolerant, bigoted members, but on the whole, I think we mostly do what we're supposed to, as a church. Thank you for the kind words.
Hell, they literally worship the same God and still declare everyone who does it a little bit differently a false religion. It's insane considering Jesus literally spent his entire time on Earth explaining that the Pharisees who were all caught up in the ritualism and letter of the law weren't going to heaven because of how they judged others and treated those who are less than than them.
Like, did these people ever OPEN the New Testament? Not even once?
Um, they don’t all worship the same god. The average adherent of Buddhism, Hinduism, polytheism, animism, Shintoism, or a Native America religion might be surprised to hear themselves described that way.
I thought we were talking about Christians here -- who qualifies as a real Christian and which ones are demonic cults.
I've never heard anyone use "sky daddy" to refer to any other faith since that would be disrespectful; it's often used exclusively to refer to Christians, especially those who are so intent on oppressing others for simply worshipping it existing in a manner different from them.
The “sky daddy” mileage may vary. Plenty of people use the term to condemn all religion, talking as if every one of them was indistinguishable from right-wing fundamentalist Christianity.
Lee sold his soul for power long ago. The old story. Too late for him. The problem isn't some list. The whole Republican movement is evil. Swallowed by the powers of darkness. Lee is a piece of shit.
Given that fundamentalist Christianity in America originated as a rationalization of antebellum slavery, and that the religious right originated as a backlash against civil rights, it’s hilarious that any fundamentalist writer would try to use white supremacy as a point against LDS.
And while Mormons have indeed been persecuted at different times in US history, the organization has no business asking for sympathy unless it finally and permanently disavows that white supremacy, and apologizes for its massive campaign to prevent legal same-sex marriage.
The most surprising thing to me was including "Agnostic" as a religion. My Nana and my Pop were Agnostic, so as a result, Daddy didn't go to church growing up, except for weddings or funerals. When he met Mama, he started going to her church (Southern Baptist) so that he could date her. He still wasn't a Christian when they married, but a few years afterward, he became a Christian and was baptized. It's a good thing that Mama didn't listen to people telling her to not marry a Christian, or I wouldn't be here! Because some people say that.
As for Nana and Pop - they both died over 50 years ago, and I miss them, but am glad that they didn't see how the Republican Party turned out, because they were Republicans, and would be horrified by how evangelicals have taken over, and that the current Republican President is a convicted criminal and a pedo. I will give trump credit for one thing - he's never claimed to be a Christian, although others, who should know better, claim that he is one.
Things like this make me happy that I wasn't raised in any religion and have side-stepped the whole thing entirely. I never worried about going to hell growing up or dealt with being ostracized for having the "wrong" one. Sometimes I went to various churches with friend's families if I spent the night on a Saturday, but that's it. I wasn't expected to join or anything. We just weren't religious.
I'm sure religion provides comfort to a lot of people, but it sure causes a lot of problems too.
I did the Lutheran thing until High School, but I guess it didn't take. Fire n' Brimstone preacher. I never read "All I Really Need To Know I Learned in Kindergarten" but it's likely true. One doesn't need religion to be nice to people, those that deserve it anyway. Plenty of asshats in the churches. We didn't raise our kids in the church, not intentionally, just what happened. They seem to be OK.
Besides, when you're dead, you're dead. Be nice to people now.
"denying myself even to myself" That resonates with me and it wasn't because I was gay. It was because any chance encounter with reproduction of any kind...words, bugs, farm animals...anything caused a tingling sensation I was sure was satanic and started me frantically praying it away.
That just makes me sad and I wonder what kind of impact that has on kids. I wasn't raised religious at all and it would have never occurred to me to do that or think there was something wrong with it.
If that’s not satire, it’s not really fair to use one religion’s cult behavior to condemn all of them. The non-monotheistic religions tend to be more about practice and ritual than about belief. Plus, cults tend to worship a *living* human leader who demands unquestioning obedience, like Jim Jones or Donald Trump.
As a former member, I can confirm that others don’t believe the LDS are Christians even though we believe Jesus is our Savior and died for our sins. However, as someone who held a Temple Recommend and is endowed, I have never been taught God has any other name than Heavenly Father. The whole getting your own planet to rule over is simplifying and ridiculing a tenet that is misunderstood by almost everyone.
Same with garments. If you would not make fun of someone for wearing a kippah, tefillin, hijab, turban, bindi etc then you shouldn’t be making fun of garments, either. They are clothing worn as a private sign of sacred covenants made between the wearer and the Divine. Many other religious people wear items they believe protect them.
Mike Lee is a cruel jackass and routinely breaks with what the LDS Church actually teaches. He is petty and he knows damn well that Latter-Day Saints aren’t considered Christians. He thought being a racist, homophobic, transphobic pos would prove he belonged. He’ll never belong, just like Log Cabin Republicans, Clarence Thomas, and any other Minority for (GOP candidate). They will take his life as easily as they take his vote.
Here's another funny story. In the 70s, I was what was called at the time "a Jesus Freak". I went to a very conservative college (but not crazy, didn't go to Bob Jones or Liberty, I was normal and went to Asbury). While there, I felt I had a calling from God to be a "Cultic Evangelist". I bought the source material for every major cult, studied them, and of course read everything Walter Martin wrote. Upon graduation, I went to California to present myself to Walter to start my internship. I was rejected out of hand, and my faith started to crack. Later the next year, the woman whom God had given me to be a helpmate said during counseling "I don't love him, I don't think I ever loved him, I don't think I could ever love him" and filed for divorce the next day. Sometime right around there I realized that the "Still small voice" I'd heard telling me all the things that were God's Will sounded suspiciously like my own voice. I knew I could hear other voices. When I thought about a Moody Blues song, I heard Justin Hayworth, but God couldn't be bothered to use a different voice. I've been an Atheist ever since.
Not that I’m denying Mormons are Christian, but the panic is all the more insulting when you realize it boils down to him being mad they aren’t included in the “good religion” club, which should, in a decent human, be a red flag that maybe this whole ranking system is bullshit. But here we are.
Yep, that is exactly it. He pays the tiniest bit of lip service to the idea that this shouldn't be happening to anyone, but that's not what he means. He's stung that after all he does for these people they still don't really think he's a Christian, and not in that "Presbyterians arguing with Baptists over whether we should baptize babies" kind of way. That's a "doctrinal dispute." They think he's a hellbound, deceived cult member.
Raised Regular Baptist here...we were explicitly taught that Mormons had demons as special helpers. One story we were told was how there were chairs that Mormons could not physically sit in because that's where their "helper" sat, but true Christians could sit in those chairs because Jesus lived in their hearts and automatically kicked the demon "helper" out of the chair. Another story was of a Mormon family that was in a car accident and the youngest son survived because his "helper" threw him out of the vehicle before impact. I was literally taught by my Bible believing church that Mormons were a dangerous cult mixed up with demons. Imagine my shock when Mitt Romney ran for president. I knew there was no way he would be elected because no true Christian could vote for a Mormon. How times have changed...
DEMON HELPERS! Very Buffy the Vampire Slayer!
Yeah, he thought he was going to be the next Ezra Taft Benson. You know where they sent Mittens on his sacred Wanderjahr? Bordeaux. That dumbfuck was knocking on doors telling them Mormon Jesus wanted them to give up wine.
He killed a girl in a driving accident while he was there, and falsely accused the other driver, who was blameless (and a priest who eventually became the bishop).
Wait, what?
I don't think they would vote for a Mormon yet. On the other hand they cheerfully vote for morons.
This is a tour de force, Evan. If I hadn't already sent you $10 last night, I'd do it again this morning. I'm a Mormon Atheist, BTW.
Flying Spaghetti Monster totes unrepresented.
The Vengeance shall be Hot and Saucy.
I thank him for the sacred blessing of his spiritual rigatoni.
I was mildly surprised to be included on the list of Christians. I'm Episcopalian. I remember when Pat Roberr$on declared that we (and the Methodists) were not - we were spirits of the antichrist
Methinks Mike Lee doesn't truly understand with whom he is in bed..
I think there are enough people who have been in the Episcopal Church for so long -- or they came out of it and they're now conservative Presbyterians -- that the Episcopalians are always going to be grandfathered on to a list like this, despite how many of these same people most likely feel that Episcopalians are completely unserious heathens.
Unserious!? Next you'll be claiming we do not know which fork to use for our salad!
I'm old enough to have experienced good old Southern Baptist ostracism in my public high school for having not been saved because I was Catholic and we didn't have a sacred rite by that name.
Up until then I'd always gone to Catholic school where we were polite and respected that our handful of protestant classmates didn't have to go to Mass with us on Wednesday mornings and we didn't make fun of them for not getting to receive the Holy Sacrament of Communion and I think one of them even advanced pretty far in our Bible Bowl one year, but the moment I stepped into a public school we were ushered into a school-wide assembly about saying no to drugs by saying yes to protestant Jesus and getting saved and I didn't stand up when they said to stand up if you've been saved because I'd never heard of the term and had never really been in any mortal danger to be saved from so I was completely confused and was almost the only kid not standing up.
And so for weeks and even years later there were kids who either told me their pastor said they couldn't talk to me because I worship Mary and the Saints or they'd ask me questions about why I'd be part of such an obviously false religion unlike theirs which was the only true one, or they'd invite me to their church where there were no kneelers because apparently they don't kneel to pray and nothing made sense because it was lacking the beautiful ritual and incense that I love about my faith, even though I haven't practiced it in decades and felt lost the last time I went because they changed some of the call and response sections and I just fundamentally disagree with the pope about whether God can call women to be priests because who is he to decide that these women must be lying or confused.
Anyways, I was still in high school when I realized that the South wasn't just fighting the Civil War still, but we were also fighting the Crusades and nobody is ever a pure enough Christian for these fundamentalist shitheads. They'll ally with you as long as you're useful, and then cast you aside the minute they get their hands on any power -- because what good is that power if you aren't using it to put someone else down, anyway?
Lot of truth in that last paragraph. Reinforces that old saw about power corrupting, doesn't it?
I grew up in the Roman Church, but my experience was different because I grew up in a neighborhood almost entirely Catholic. The only teacher I had that did anything religious, used to make us recite the Lord's Prayer first thing, and she always said, "Now, all you Protestants, just continue with your ending. You don't have to stop with the rest of us."
My bestest friend told me years later, that she did continue (Episcopalian), but she was probably the only one who did.
How different are people's experiences in youth! Sometimes I wonder how we come together at all. Glad we do, tho'.
If these fucknut holy rollers ever DO sieze the kind of HAndmaids Tale absolute power they want, it will be 12.56 milliseconds before the internecine slaughter begins.
The Founding Fathers were within the lived experience of the hundreds of years of religious warfare that consumed Europe. They had grand parents who had fought in them. This is why Madison put the first Amendment FIRST, and the separation of church and state.
It is really the only way to protect both Church (whichever and whatever that may be) and State.
Read Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists, who were actually being discriminated against by the state because they were different from the ruling religion
https://au.org/wp-content/uploads/migration/pdf_documents/JeffersonDanburyBaptists.pdf
Robertson said that?? He really was a douche! I'm a Baptist, but there are Methodists in the family. No Episcopalians in the family, but the Episcopal Church near my house does God's work - they have a food pantry and host a medical clinic once a week. They have a first class preschool that my grandson attended for a few years before kindergarten, and when my oldest (his mom), was in school, she went to there after school program after school.
1999
'You're supposed to be nice to Episcopalians, Presbyterians and Methodists ... Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.' It was about the same time he said that feminists encouraged women to leave their husbands and "become" Lesbians.
Episcopalians are inclusive - which means we have our share of uncharitable, intolerant, bigoted members, but on the whole, I think we mostly do what we're supposed to, as a church. Thank you for the kind words.
PS: how seriously can I take believers when y'all can't agree on which magic sky daddy is the real one?
Hell, they literally worship the same God and still declare everyone who does it a little bit differently a false religion. It's insane considering Jesus literally spent his entire time on Earth explaining that the Pharisees who were all caught up in the ritualism and letter of the law weren't going to heaven because of how they judged others and treated those who are less than than them.
Like, did these people ever OPEN the New Testament? Not even once?
Um, they don’t all worship the same god. The average adherent of Buddhism, Hinduism, polytheism, animism, Shintoism, or a Native America religion might be surprised to hear themselves described that way.
I thought we were talking about Christians here -- who qualifies as a real Christian and which ones are demonic cults.
I've never heard anyone use "sky daddy" to refer to any other faith since that would be disrespectful; it's often used exclusively to refer to Christians, especially those who are so intent on oppressing others for simply worshipping it existing in a manner different from them.
The “sky daddy” mileage may vary. Plenty of people use the term to condemn all religion, talking as if every one of them was indistinguishable from right-wing fundamentalist Christianity.
People who use religion to build walls instead of bridges deserve condemnation.
Elaine, you summed it up perfectly! I agree with you.
Lee sold his soul for power long ago. The old story. Too late for him. The problem isn't some list. The whole Republican movement is evil. Swallowed by the powers of darkness. Lee is a piece of shit.
Given that fundamentalist Christianity in America originated as a rationalization of antebellum slavery, and that the religious right originated as a backlash against civil rights, it’s hilarious that any fundamentalist writer would try to use white supremacy as a point against LDS.
And while Mormons have indeed been persecuted at different times in US history, the organization has no business asking for sympathy unless it finally and permanently disavows that white supremacy, and apologizes for its massive campaign to prevent legal same-sex marriage.
The most surprising thing to me was including "Agnostic" as a religion. My Nana and my Pop were Agnostic, so as a result, Daddy didn't go to church growing up, except for weddings or funerals. When he met Mama, he started going to her church (Southern Baptist) so that he could date her. He still wasn't a Christian when they married, but a few years afterward, he became a Christian and was baptized. It's a good thing that Mama didn't listen to people telling her to not marry a Christian, or I wouldn't be here! Because some people say that.
As for Nana and Pop - they both died over 50 years ago, and I miss them, but am glad that they didn't see how the Republican Party turned out, because they were Republicans, and would be horrified by how evangelicals have taken over, and that the current Republican President is a convicted criminal and a pedo. I will give trump credit for one thing - he's never claimed to be a Christian, although others, who should know better, claim that he is one.
How is it, that after thousands of years, no one's got religion "right"?
Things like this make me happy that I wasn't raised in any religion and have side-stepped the whole thing entirely. I never worried about going to hell growing up or dealt with being ostracized for having the "wrong" one. Sometimes I went to various churches with friend's families if I spent the night on a Saturday, but that's it. I wasn't expected to join or anything. We just weren't religious.
I'm sure religion provides comfort to a lot of people, but it sure causes a lot of problems too.
I did the Lutheran thing until High School, but I guess it didn't take. Fire n' Brimstone preacher. I never read "All I Really Need To Know I Learned in Kindergarten" but it's likely true. One doesn't need religion to be nice to people, those that deserve it anyway. Plenty of asshats in the churches. We didn't raise our kids in the church, not intentionally, just what happened. They seem to be OK.
Besides, when you're dead, you're dead. Be nice to people now.
"denying myself even to myself" That resonates with me and it wasn't because I was gay. It was because any chance encounter with reproduction of any kind...words, bugs, farm animals...anything caused a tingling sensation I was sure was satanic and started me frantically praying it away.
That just makes me sad and I wonder what kind of impact that has on kids. I wasn't raised religious at all and it would have never occurred to me to do that or think there was something wrong with it.
It was profoundly damaging.
Outstanding. I love your posts because you make me laugh even when I'm outraged. Thank you once again and always.
All religions are cults. I grew up fourth generation RLDS on my mother's side and I know whereof I speak.
If that’s not satire, it’s not really fair to use one religion’s cult behavior to condemn all of them. The non-monotheistic religions tend to be more about practice and ritual than about belief. Plus, cults tend to worship a *living* human leader who demands unquestioning obedience, like Jim Jones or Donald Trump.
Or the pope? Or the archbishop of Canterbury?
Does a religion stop being a cult when they start replacing their "divine" leaders?
The only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of people that believe in it.
No, cults have specific psychological markers that are different from religions in general.
BiasedMikeLee should have been grateful for "Christian - Other."
As a former member, I can confirm that others don’t believe the LDS are Christians even though we believe Jesus is our Savior and died for our sins. However, as someone who held a Temple Recommend and is endowed, I have never been taught God has any other name than Heavenly Father. The whole getting your own planet to rule over is simplifying and ridiculing a tenet that is misunderstood by almost everyone.
Same with garments. If you would not make fun of someone for wearing a kippah, tefillin, hijab, turban, bindi etc then you shouldn’t be making fun of garments, either. They are clothing worn as a private sign of sacred covenants made between the wearer and the Divine. Many other religious people wear items they believe protect them.
Mike Lee is a cruel jackass and routinely breaks with what the LDS Church actually teaches. He is petty and he knows damn well that Latter-Day Saints aren’t considered Christians. He thought being a racist, homophobic, transphobic pos would prove he belonged. He’ll never belong, just like Log Cabin Republicans, Clarence Thomas, and any other Minority for (GOP candidate). They will take his life as easily as they take his vote.
Here's another funny story. In the 70s, I was what was called at the time "a Jesus Freak". I went to a very conservative college (but not crazy, didn't go to Bob Jones or Liberty, I was normal and went to Asbury). While there, I felt I had a calling from God to be a "Cultic Evangelist". I bought the source material for every major cult, studied them, and of course read everything Walter Martin wrote. Upon graduation, I went to California to present myself to Walter to start my internship. I was rejected out of hand, and my faith started to crack. Later the next year, the woman whom God had given me to be a helpmate said during counseling "I don't love him, I don't think I ever loved him, I don't think I could ever love him" and filed for divorce the next day. Sometime right around there I realized that the "Still small voice" I'd heard telling me all the things that were God's Will sounded suspiciously like my own voice. I knew I could hear other voices. When I thought about a Moody Blues song, I heard Justin Hayworth, but God couldn't be bothered to use a different voice. I've been an Atheist ever since.